Rural and Regional Affairs and Transport References Committee : 18/05/2023 : Bank closures in regional Australia (2024)

FLEMING, Mr Chris, Executive General Manager, Consumer Distribution, Suncorp Bank, Suncorp Group Ltd

van HOREN, Mr Clive, Chief Executive Officer, Suncorp Bank, Suncorp Group Ltd

[12:20]

CHAIR: Welcome. I understand that information on parliamentary privilege and the protection of witnesses has been provided to you. You're welcome to make an opening statement, if you wish, and then we'll go to questions.

Mr van Horen : Thank you to the committee for the opportunity to appear before you. We do appreciate the task that's before the committee. As a mid-sized Australian bank which has a long history in regional Queensland, this is a subject that Suncorp Bank is acutely aware of. We're looking forward to working with the committee on the path forward.

I'd like to start by talking briefly about the context in which we operate. This clearly is changing significantly and therefore we, as a bank, need to change as well. I'd like to touch on a few of those changes. Firstly, digital adoption. This has seen massive changes in the way that all customers engage in all aspects of life. For banking, that includes the way we open accounts, spend, save, receive payments and transfer money. In days gone by, our Suncorp Bank customers had to either phone us or go into a branch to open a bank account. Five years ago, in fact, less than 30 per cent of new accounts were opened online. Currently, that's over 80 per cent. On an average day, our customers will phone our contact centre about 4,000 times, they will visit a branch about 6,000 times or log onto our digital platforms 365,000 times.

We've also seen a very significant decline in the number of Australians using cheques to make payments. That's down 69 per cent in the last five years. Physical wallets that hold notes, coins, plastic bank cards are increasingly being left at home, replaced with smartphones as we make cashless payments using digital wallets such as Apple Pay and Google Pay.

When it comes to borrowing money for a home, a business or an investment property, customers have also shown they value the convenience and advice of brokers. Ten years ago, brokers accounted for 44 per cent of all home loans originated across Australia. This has increased to 70 per cent currently, and for us, the Suncorp Bank, it's the slightly higher proportion of 75 per cent. We at Suncorp Bank have got more than 380 accredited brokers in Far North Queensland alone, and nearly 19,000 brokers nationally. Brokers provide vastly more access and flexibility than our own bank lenders or branches ever could.

Against that backdrop of change, we also operate in what I believe is a very competitive market. As a mid-sized bank, we compete not only with large and small banks but also technology firms who have enormous scale. To be competitive, we have to balance where we invest across our branch network, our call centres, mobile and digital platforms, as well as our ability to continue fighting cyber fraud while staying competitive with larger banks when it comes to innovation and addressing regulatory change.

Given all of those drivers of change in competition, in recent years Suncorp Bank has made the difficult decision to close a number of branches—the large majority of which were in metro areas. Of the 16 branches we closed in regional areas in the last five years, the average number of customers visiting those branches had dropped to only 41 customers per day, and in four of those branches there were only 10 customers per day coming through the doors. There does come a point where it's simply unsustainable to keep a branch open without enough customers using them.

When we have made a decision to close a branch, whether metro or regional, it's not taken lightly. And it does take into account not just the data, some of which I've already touched on, but also the priorities of our own people, our customers and the wider community. For our people, where we do close a branch, we make every effort to find them alternative roles. And I'm pleased to say that since 2020, over 70 per cent of all our impacted team members have transferred to alternative roles within Suncorp, and the vast majority of these are still in their local community. For our customers, when we have closed a branch, we've contacted every customer directly about the decision and the range of banking services still available to them. This includes speaking with every known vulnerable customer to discuss solutions to continue banking with us.

One of these solutions and, I believe, an important part of the future for regional Australia is our partnership with Australia Post. With 3½ thousand outlets across Australia, half of which are regional, the most common transactions completed in our own branch network can be completed at Bank@Post. The remainder can be done by phone, the app, internet banking, secure messaging and ATMs.

For every branch closed in the last five years by Suncorp Bank, there has been a Bank@Post outlet within, on average, only 500 metres of our branch location. As part of our closure process, we do engage directly with the relevant Australia Post outlet and our customers. This transition process has been successful, highlighted by the fact that, where a customer's local branch closed, our data shows that two years later more than nine out of 10 of those affected customers continue to bank with us, even when there are other banks' local branches nearby.

Finally, I should mention and the committee will be aware of the proposed acquisition of Suncorp Bank by ANZ, which is subject to various regulatory and government approvals. Suncorp has publicly stated our view that the acquisition is in the best interests of the bank, our customers, our employees and both the Queensland and national interest. The decision to sell the bank considered the future challenges and opportunities for both the insurance and banking sectors at a time of significant economic change, which includes the digital disruption I spoke about, increased wholesale funding costs for regional banks and an increasingly competitive operating environment.

I believe that with a backing of the scale, balance sheet and technology investment of a large bank like ANZ, Suncorp Bank will be in a stronger position to compete and serve our customers, whilst allowing the insurance parts of Suncorp Group to focus on the very significant challenges that insurance businesses in Australia and New Zealand face.

As I conclude, I would like to note that Suncorp Bank has not closed a branch since June 2022, and we have committed to not closing any branches in 2023 whilst this committee is undertaking its work. We do support the recommendations of the Regional Banking Taskforce and look forward to continuing to work with this committee. Thank you for the time, Chair. Chris and I look forward to your questions.

CHAIR: The evidence I have here is that over the last few years, as you said, you have shut some branches. But in particular what stands out is that, around 2017 or 2018, the number of ATMs Suncorp had fell from over 350 to around just over 100. What happened there? Why was there such a—

Mr van Horen : We have two categories of ATMs. The first is ATMs that are attached to branches, and then the second is ATMs that have to be in another location—they could be in a shopping centre or in a high street area. Our branch footprint has reduced. That has been one driver for the reduction in the number of ATMs, because generally we've moved the ATM when the branch is moved. Another is that we've engaged with atmx, which is a third party that provides access to many, many more. Chris will correct me with the exact number, but there are well over a thousand ATMs that our customers can use. I would also say that several years ago fees were removed from all customers using all major bank ATMs. So a Suncorp Bank customer can use an ATM of a major bank, of which there are thousands, without paying any fees to withdraw cash.

CHAIR: That's a significant reduction. You didn't shut 200 branches, but there was a reduction of about 200 ATMs. Could you take on notice for me—

Mr van Horen : Yes, we could. I think the fact is that the number of ATM transactions has dropped very significantly—to something like 70 per cent over the last five years. As with all these situations, we have to balance what makes an ATM or a branch a sustainable option.

Mr Fleming : What I would add is that, in that number in our branch locations, there is often more than one ATM. So that might be not only deposit withdrawal but also cash exchange machines, which is why those two numbers are a little different.

CHA IR: Could you take that on notice, though, because that significant reduction just doesn't seem to be explained by your evidence. We heard earlier that ANZ were claiming credit for reducing carbon emissions from shutting branches. Do you factor in the carbon footprint of a regional branch in a decision to stay open or closed?

Mr van Horen : No, we don't.

CHAIR: Great. That's good to hear. Regarding those branches you have closed, have you prepared impact statements for them?

Mr van Horen : Do you mean impact statements in the context of what the Regional Banking Taskforce has recommended—that kind of statement—or do you mean a carbon impact—

CHAIR: It already happened—

Mr van Horen : When we make decisions around closing branches, we look at a range of impacts. We definitely try and take a balanced view and look at all the considerations—the data that I've described, the customer and community impacts and alternatives for customers. Typically, to date, we have not looked at climate considerations and, given we haven't done any closures for quite a while, would not factor them into that decision. That has not been the case to date.

CHAIR: Sorry, I wasn't referring to climate impacts, there. I apologise. Moving on to the regional impact, have you done any assessment reports, even internally? Do you put together a report on what the impact will be on the local community and businesses et cetera?

Mr van Horen : Chris can talk to the process in detail. To my knowledge, we've not done formal reports trying to evaluate the multitude of economic impacts. That would be a very, very complex exercise to undertake at a micro level. However, we do look a lot at the impact on the community when we are making the decision to close branches.

Mr Fleming : Yes, absolutely. We look at, obviously, the number of customers that we have in a given branch, how they're using that branch, what the alternatives are and what those distances are. Certainly, we look at our people. What is our workforce? What are their capabilities? Since 2020, we've been able to offer 100 per cent redeployment opportunities for those people. They're the types of considerations that we think through as we're making those difficult decisions.

CHAIR: Do you assess what other options are available, or what other financial service providers are available in those areas?

Mr van Horen : We do. To our knowledge, whenever we have closed a branch in the last number of years, there have always been other banks present in those same communities. All the alternatives I've mentioned around mortgage brokers are far in excess of what our footprint ever has been or ever will be. That is true in both the consumer and the business space, including agri customers. And then we've got all those other channels that we've touched on already that customers can use. For business banking, which I didn't mention in my opening statement, our model with business bankers, for example, we have a number of relationship managers serving the agri community. There are just under 60 across the eastern seaboard of Australia. It might not be a big number, but they cover big distances. Our model is that they will travel to our agri customers wherever they are.

CHAIR: Are you preparing, or have you agreed to the Regional Banking Taskforce committee's recommendations on impact assessments?

Mr van Horen : Yes.

CHAIR: How are you putting that in place?

Mr van Horen : As I mentioned, we haven't closed a branch for nearly a year—since June 2022—and don't have any plans to close branches, at least this year. As you would be aware with the ANZ acquisition, the commitment that ANZ has made is to have no branch closures in Queensland, as a result of the transaction, for three years. However, we have supported the work of the Regional Banking Taskforce and are committed to continuing in that vein.

CHAIR: Senator Allman-Payne.

Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Thanks for appearing before the committee today. If you've heard the other evidence, it's no surprise that I'm really interested in the consultation that takes place and the processes that you go through when you make decisions to close. I can give you, from the outset, my cascading list of questions, and you can work your way through. Who makes the closure decisions, and where are they located? At what period do you consult? Do you consult before the decision's made or after the decision's made? Who is it that you actually consult, and does that include people who work in the branches and people like councillors and local representatives in the areas in which you're looking to close those branches?

Mr Fleming : I'm happy to take that. I'm fairly close to those decisions, and, in fact, a key decision-maker on those closures. I'm Brisbane based. I work with my regional manager who is based in Cairns. The prior regional manager for Ingham was also Cairns based. We've got people based in Townsville and Emerald, and I consult with those individuals on decisions when we make them. It's local consultation with those people.

When it comes to announcing on the day, we start with our people. We think that's really important. We want to make sure they're equipped with why we've made the decision. Obviously, as we start to talk to customers, that can be via email or that can be sending a letter. In the case of vulnerable customers, we pick up the phone to all of those customers, not just those that are on the system. By talking to our branch team, who know those customers, we want to know who we need to make sure that we consult with, or interact with, really, really well. In the Ingham example, we did pick up the phone to the councillor that appeared this morning and let him know about that closure.

Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: It's fair to say, though, that, similar to ANZ bank, no-one in the local community is consulted until you've actually made the decision?

Mr Fleming : We start to interact with the likes of councillors or local groups after that decision, but, beforehand, we are talking to our teams who are on the ground, who spend time in places like Ingham, with our customers in the branch and with the team and, as I say, really do know North Queensland.

Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Okay, but there's—

Mr van Horen : In the example of Ingham, Chris, himself, was here not too long before that branch closure decision was made.

Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Have you ever reversed a closure decision after you've consulted with people in the community, like councils and local representatives, and gotten new or additional information?

Mr Fleming : Yes. We've got two examples. Julia Creek and Richmond are those two examples. That was in 2017. We had feedback from the mayor, Belinda Murphy, and we listened to that. Those two locations did actually close 12 months later, but we held the branch open for another year.

Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: You've talked about the Bank@Post option for people. We've heard evidence during this inquiry that Bank@Post doesn't serve a number of needs in the community—for example, if you are trying to get a large float together for an event. We've also heard from other witnesses today that they've looked at different options, like co-locating one bank employee in, for example, a council location or other locations, which would then allow them to still offer services like getting large amounts of cash and the like. Do you ever consider those options, or is your option there's either a branch or there's not?

Mr van Horen : I'll start and Chris can add. We have a fairly simple model. Unlike some of the evidence you heard a moment ago from Bendigo, who've got, we believe, a much more complicated model, we have corporate owned branches—our own branches—and a number of agencies. The agencies are, I think, what you're describing. They're a fairly small number. Roughly 10 per cent of our total footprint would be in that agency model. We do believe that Australia Post is an important part of the future. It was part of the Regional Banking Taskforce recommendations and the ability for customers to do more and higher-value transactions. So, for us, customers can withdraw and deposit money. They can deposit just on $10,000 at Australia Post or withdraw $2,000. Is there anything you want to add to that?

Mr Fleming : No. We've got a wide range of ways that people interact with us, and cash is just one way in our 64 branches. If I think about identification requirements, those Bank@Post outlets, of which half are in regional Australia, really provide our customers with a scale even beyond our existing branches.

Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: If I'm on a voluntary committee, and we're changing over signatories, can they do that with ID at Bank@Post? Is that what you're saying?

Mr Fleming : We would do the changing of signatories via a process that would be printing out a letter and actually sending that back through to us in a head office. So that is more of a manual process without a branch, but it is something we would facilitate. If there is something bespoke that we need to do, we've got our contact centre where our teams can help customers with those kinds of solutions.

Senator ALLMAN-PAYNE: Okay. I might leave it there for the time being.

CHAIR: Thank you. Senator White.

Senator WHITE: How many branches have you closed since 2020? That's between 2020 and when you say you stopped.

Mr Fleming : It was 49 branches over that time.

Senator WHITE: How many of those were regional?

Mr Fleming : Of those, 10.

Senator WHITE: You probably saw us discuss with ANZ what they've done. Is it fair to say they've got the lowest representation in regional Australia of the big four, so they have been fairly significantly cutting branches, particularly in regional Australia?

Mr van Horen : I prefer not to speak on behalf of ANZ or others, but, if you look at the data, ANZ has the smallest national footprint of all the big four banks.

Senator WHITE: In regional areas. Does that give you a bit of concern about the merger that you're about to embark upon—that they have this overwhelming view of cutting regional banks—or have you got some guarantees from them about what they will do?

Mr van Horen : Again, I'll speak to what's been publicly stated. You'll appreciate that we're competitors. We're still subject to an ACCC process, so I have to be very careful about what I say. However, what they have said publicly is that, as a result of the acquisition of Suncorp Bank, they will keep our Queensland branches open for at least three years. They've also committed that there will be no net job losses as a result of the transaction for at least three years in Queensland. They've also entered a licence agreement with the Suncorp Group. I lead the Suncorp Bank. My insurance colleagues obviously have various brands that they operate under. ANZ has entered a licence agreement to be able to continue using the Suncorp Bank brand for five years.

Senator WHITE: Okay. How many locations do you have a branch each in?

Mr van Horen : It's a pretty high overlap. In substantially all of our locations, our 64 branches, there would be an ANZ branch. There are a few exceptions, but there would be an ANZ branch—

Senator WHITE: So 64 in Queensland?

Mr van Horen : No, 64 is our national branch footprint.

Senator WHITE: And in Queensland? How many do you think there are?

Mr Fleming : I can talk to regionals for the purpose of this discussion. In Queensland, there are 13 towns with 15 branches—in Townsville and Cairns, we've got a couple—and, in regional New South Wales, there are two.

Senator WHITE: As I understand ANZ's commitment, they've said that you've got three years to keep those branches open, but they haven't said what they're going to do with their branches in these regional areas, have they? They still exist in—

Mr van Horen : I think you heard the evidence from the ANZ—

Senator WHITE: I heard them. They have no plans, but there could be a plan that's hatched tomorrow, couldn't there? Yes. Just on your consultation process, the FSU say in their submission that you're particularly bad at consultation with the FSU. Is that true?

Mr Fleming : Firstly, we're aware of that submission, and what I would say is that we take on board any feedback on opportunities to improve. We engage with the FSU on individual branch closures, or, where we've had some come together, we would meet more formally, and I've had examples like that.

Senator WHITE: See, they don't say that. What they say is that you take a kind of cute legal point: that, because you often make fewer than 15 people redundant, that's not a major change, and therefore you have no obligation. What do you say about that allegation? They say that in their submission, I think.

Mr Fleming : That's certainly not my reflection of how we operate that process. We have a commitment to engage well with the FSU, and, if we need to do that better, we'll take that on board.

Senator WHITE: I'd better make a declaration: back in the day, I dealt with one of your predecessors, Metway. That was the way they operated when I was doing it. You don't take that cute point?

Mr van Horen : No, we don't.

Senator WHITE: So, even if it's under 15, you do meet with the union?

Mr van Horen : I think we take as constructive an approach as we possibly can, and our goal, as I said earlier, is to offer 100 per cent of those people comparable alternatives, and that's been the case in the last while.

Senator WHITE: Yes, but I'm talking about the legal obligation to consult on your enterprise agreement with the union. Some employers don't think dealing with a union is constructive, which is what I could interpret your answer to be. But do you, in every case, consult with the FSU about branch closures and potential redundancies?

Mr van Horen : I would have to come back to you and check what has happened historically. We would probably be going quite far back in time. I can assure you that, obviously, we aim to be 100 per cent compliant with the law, but, beyond that, our overall approach is to be constructive.

Senator WHITE: Sure. Well, then, let me talk about '100 per cent compliant with the law'. It's not a law. There's no law that says that you have to consult with the community or you have to do anything with these bank closures, is there? Your licence doesn't have anything attached to it that says you have to do that, so there is no law. It's the goodness of your heart, really, that you do this, isn't it?

Mr van Horen : We've touched on this already. Our approach historically did not include prior consultation with the community, as we've stated. Our priority was to talk to our own people first, which is what we've done. We have definitely consulted with our leaders, who have been local or very close to local. Going forward, the Regional Banking Taskforce protocol, which strengthens the way that we engage with communities before and after, is something that we have committed to doing.

Senator WHITE: Sure, but ABA's regional bank protocol is not enforceable by anyone, is it?

Mr van Horen : I'm not sure what the enforcement mechanism is, but, as a bank, we're not going to sign up to something and knowingly not follow that.

Senator WHITE: Well, let's say the banking royal commission suggested—not with your bank, but others—that they do sign up for things that they don't follow. But can I go back to that? There's no penalty if you breach it, either, is there?

Mr van Horen : Not that I'm aware of.

Senator WHITE: No. And so it really is a matter for you to decide what you want to do. You could have no plans today to not follow it, but tomorrow you could have a plan that says: 'No, we're not following it anymore. We don't like having to do it.'

Mr Fleming : What I would say in response is that, if I think about some of those protocol notification periods, we were, as best we could, making sure that was the case. We had one example when we had flooding in Brisbane in 2022, when we couldn't achieve a 12-week notice. In terms of vulnerability and those recommendations, we do make contact with all of those customers, and so there's a lot that sits in that that we already do. I think the notification consistency that's been suggested is a good thing, and we'll make sure that's part of our processes moving forward.

Senator WHITE: Thanks.

Senato r ROBERTS: Thank you both for appearing today. How many branches does Suncorp have, including agencies?

Mr van Horen : We have 64 branches and seven agencies.

Senator ROBERTS: In which regions do you not have Suncorp branches and agencies?

Mr Flemi ng : Seventy-five per cent of our branches are in Queensland, and just under 30 per cent of those are regional. That stretches from Cairns up to Mount Isa all the way from Emerald and Roma down to Warwick. We have branches in Moree, Tamworth and Dubbo, and then the rest sit in metro areas—basically Sunshine Coast to Gold Coast to Toowoomba—for South-East Queensland.

Senator ROBERTS: None in, say, Longreach, Charleville, Winton or Cloncurry.

Mr Fleming : Our presence in Longreach is our business banking. We've got agribankers based in Longreach.

Senator ROBERTS: So they're large coastal towns, mainly, and Mount Isa.

Mr Fleming : Mount Isa. We have a branch in Emerald, Roma and Dalby.

Senator ROBERTS: You're going to the ANZ, and I know that you can't talk too much about the details. What's the future of Suncorp? Will it be part of ANZ and swallowed up or will it be kept as a separate brand?

Mr van Horen : Just expanding on what I said earlier, today ANZ operates four divisions: the retail bank, commercial bank, institutional bank and New Zealand. We, Suncorp Bank, will be the fifth operating division. I will continue to lead Suncorp Bank as part of that.

Senator ROBERTS: So you'll be a separate entity controlled by ANZ.

Mr van Horen : Yes. We'll be a separate entity. Today we are a bank; we have our own banking licence. Post completion, assuming the deal is approved, we'll still have our banking license for a period. At some point, it would make sense for that former ADI license to be handed back to APRA, and they would be keen for that to happen, and then we'll become an operating division of ANZ like those others that I mentioned.

Senator ROBERTS: What about any impact on the employees or customers in the changeover?

Mr van Horen : I've already mentioned the commitments that ANZ has made already around Queensland which, I believe, are very strong commitments that would be very difficult for any organisation to make in a normal course of business. We at Suncorp believe that it's a good thing for our customers in aggregate, because, as a mid-sized bank, there are lots of things that we can't do for our customers. We don't have the scale. We don't have the technology. There are more complex products that we just can't offer them, and so customers tend to outgrow us. By offering a fuller suite of products that ANZ has, we believe we can do a better job for those customers.

Senator ROBERTS: Australia Post doesn't have a deal with ANZ. ANZ doesn't use Australia Post. Will your deal with, or your commitment to, Australia Post continue?

Mr van Horen : Yes, it will. We have a contract with Australia Post that will continue to be honoured, and ANZ has said that publicly as well.

Senator ROBERTS: Why is the sale in the best interests of customers and, especially, your people and shareholders. You've just explained why it's in the best interest of your customers.

Mr van Horen : I covered our customers. For our people, the benefits of a bank owning a bank are very significant because of the access to capital, balance-sheet funding, lower-cost finance, technology and all the benefits. You've heard some of the other witnesses speak about how difficult it is to get a new bank off the ground. I do believe there are significant benefits of a bank being owned by a bank. Secondly—

Senator ROBERTS: A bank being owned by a bank or a bank being owned by one of the big four banks?

Mr van Horen : A bank being owned by one of the big four banks brings significant advantages. I think, also, that insurance in Australia—we're here, in Queensland, and we know that the frequency and severity of natural disasters here and in New Zealand are very significant and going up, and so the insurance industry as a whole faces challenges. Part of what we believe and I believe is that it is a really significant advantage for Suncorp insurance, once the bank is sold into ANZ, to be able to focus on insurance and meeting the needs of insurance customers across the country.

Senator ROBERTS: Just one correction: the number of extreme weather events has not been increasing. It's been stable.

Mr van Horen : I'd rather defer to my insurance colleagues, but I have seen data which talks to a number of different natural hazard types—fire, flood and so on—and, overall, the numbers have increased slightly. But I'm aware that certain types of those natural hazards have increased in frequency, and severity is the other side of that same coin. When a disaster occurs, the cost is quite significant.

Senator ROBERTS: The data I've seen—and the Bureau of Meteorology corroborates it—is that there's been no increase overall in severity or frequency. What will happen to the insurance business?

Mr van Horen : After the sale of the bank?

Senator ROBERTS: Yes.

Mr van H oren : The Suncorp group, which today comprises the bank, Suncorp Insurance Australia and Suncorp Insurance New Zealand, will therefore be those two remaining insurance operations.

Senator ROBERTS: And they're being bought by ANZ?

Mr van Horen : No, just the bank is being bought by ANZ.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. Can you come back to your answer? You said there are significant advantages to being bought by one of the big four. What are those advantages? Is there another second-tier bank? Is that what Suncorp is called—a second-tier bank?

Mr van Horen : Mid-tier.

Senator ROBERTS: Compare it with amalgamating with another second-tier bank. Why the big four?

Mr van Horen : I have to be careful here because some of this is content that is directly relevant to the ACCC process, and I need to be careful not to cross boundaries that the regulator has. However, I believe that there are quite significant structural challenges that we, as a smaller bank, have to overcome: for example, access to funding, cost of funding, cost of capital and the ability to deal with regulatory challenges. If you think of financial crime, for example, or scams, which are a scourge that we're all facing, the ability for an organisation to invest sufficiently to tackle all of those things requires scale. You heard some of the witnesses earlier in the session today speaking about how difficult it is, as a small organisation, to get scale and deal with all of those regulatory changes that are required. The same applies as a mid-sized bank. So if, for example, you're talking about a KYC platform or an anti-fraud system or a system to tackle scams or a lending origination system—wherever you look in the hundreds and hundreds of systems that organisations like us have—scale really does help.

Senator ROBERTS: Thank you. That's all I have, Chair.

CHAIR: If there are no other questions, thank you very much, Mr van Horen and Mr Fleming. I don't think we asked you any questions on notice, but if there is information to provide could you please—

Senator WHITE: Yes, I did ask.

CHAIR: There is one. Okay, thank you. Please provide that by Thursday 1 June. Thank you very much.

Proceedings suspended from 12:52 to 13:42
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